Comments on Who was the High King?

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OK, I was waiting to comment until I'd read all of this, but now I can't wait any longer. So glad Herucalmo finally figured it out! Took him long enough! (Entirely believable, since he cannot possibly have expected to meet Maglor of all people on his impulsive trip to the beach, but I still couldn't wait for the realisation.) This is such a fascinating discussion, and I can't wait to find out where it's headed.

Also, I am glad that you couldn't hear the indignified squealing sound I made when I saw that TEA had inspired you to write something about Herucalmo! Wow. I'm so ridiculously excited.

And now, onward!

 



Thanks, Lyra :)

I've been thoroughly enjoying Embalmer's Apprentice (as I think you must know by now), and I think my favourite aspect is the way the deterioration of the Numenoreans is deftly sketched between generations - the mid-times are the hardest to properly show, especially the gentle gradations from one generation to the next).

Herucalmo is almost as bright as he regards himself to be, but very self-focused (naturally so, given his upbringing).  For many people, their internal focus in a conversation isn't that much on their interlocutor - for Herucalmo here, it's:

1 - Put this Elf at ease so I can look for that Light.  Focus on what I'll be saying next.

2 - [Slightly offended] - explain what I meant; he'll understand.  Focus on what I'll be saying next rather than what he's saying.

3 - Hang on - he's a very influential and ancient Elf.  Maybe I can benefit from this.  Focus on what I'll be saying next to try to bring out the information I want.

4 - Wait, who is he?  Focus on what he's saying and what he has said.  Wait - he's Maglor?

“We are Doomed and you are not.” Oh, Herucalmo! I love how you show how very firmly he is caught up in the whole death=doom line of thought that will ultimately lead to the Downfall of Númenor. And I love how Maglor dismantles his understanding of the line of succession - although Herucalmo still doesn't quite grasp it...



Herucalmo is still, unfortunately, too self-focused.  But at least he's self-focusing in the right direction - he's remembering more than he thought he would (memories tend to cascade thanks to associations; that is, as I understand it, how memories are "sorted" and "stored")

At the moment, he's trying to listen and understand, but automatically placing the information where he originally understood it to be - he's still certain of his own rightness.  But he does listen, eventually.

(As long as what he's understanding fits with what he wants, of course.  He would never accept any argument on Doom, sadly - he's too far gone for that)

 

Maglor's assessment of Turgon is harsh, but I'd be lying if I hadn't thought the same! And the way he formulates the rule for succession is pure genius. It really sums up the years between the death of Fingolfin and the Second Age perfectly. Thoroughly enjoying this discussion - the way in which Maglor stops pretending to be just a random elf on the shore is very telling, too. And of course that's exactly the conclusion Herucalmo would draw!



I figured that as Turgon so disliked the Sons of Feanor (not without reason, of course), his dislike would be returned.  It's arguably an unfair representation (after all, Turgon was operating on Ulmo's guidance), but there's enough truth to it that it stings.  And it does provide a nice counterpoint to Pengolodh's rather biased narrative.

And thank you for your kind words :)

I was wondering if the light had been the actual Silmaril! So pleased to have been right. Oh, Maglor. And yes, packing up and moving on is certainly indicated right now - even if Herucalmo doesn't return after all.

Of course, "Light of the West" works either way - whether it was the sunset or the Silmaril he glimpsed... and I love the wider implications of this. Although Maglor is certainly right that Herucalmo would take a lot more (and better) schooling to live up to that name and his prospects.

Why would immortal Elves have evolved detailed and specific rules along those lines when, prior to their Exile, they never expected their Kings to die?

Why indeed? The discussions still exist (naturally, as new people come into the fandom and revive old discussions), and "they never had a plan for the succession, they just made things up as they went along" feels like the most satisfying conclusion.

I'm sure Herucalmo would have found some way of justifying his usurpation (or is it?) in some way anyway, but this is surely the best-thought-out rationalisation. Doesn't seem to have caught on, though!

I absolutely adore this story (as you can probably tell). Thanks so much for sharing.



And thank you for your kind comments.

It probably comes out that Maglor is a bit condescending (naturally so, I think).  While writing it, this brought out a further realisation on your Embalmer's Apprentice - I knew already you were showing the evolution of the deterioration of the Numenoreans between Atanacalmo's generation and Herucalmo's generation, but I further realised that Eärendur's attitude - although far nicer and more thoughtful (and a light shown on how much better things were in the earlier era of Numenor), you can see a chink of the same issues: Eärendur takes his responsibilities seriously and properly as a paternalistic Lord, but has occasional tendencies towards condescension towards his "lessers." 

I think he fights it when he subconsciously picks it up, but deep down, there's a latent "better than you" self-image.  The fact that he almost always keeps it reined in means he's a great Lord, but you could see how it - if not held back - could grow and become what it has in Atanacalmo, and then later Herucalmo.

My apologies for a discursion into discussing your work, but it was in writing this that what you were doing there suddenly became clear. 

No need to apologise! I should be sorry that my work is intruding into what should be a discussion of your story! You are absolutely right, of course. There is condescension in Eärendur, too, and while he mainly channels it into teaching, protecting and looking after his people, it still comes from a sense of superiority and of knowing best what's best for others. Atanacalmo's motivations are much the same - he's just using different methods, and doesn't worry too much about what it looks like from the outside. Herucalmo probably thinks that he's acting in the best interests of his country. And each generation moves a little further away from "what's best for everybody" and closer to "what's best for me"...

It would be hard for Maglor not to feel at least a little superior. He does know better about many things (not just history, but certainly Elven and probably a fair bit of human nature, too) from bitter experience. And it has probably been a long time since he's been able to hone his skills in polite face-to-face communication.

I loved your list of Herucalmo's internal focus. Spot-on. The way he stored the new information in exactly the way he would benefit from it was also very human - don't we all prefer to use new information to support what we thought we knew all along, as long as possible, rather than turning our world on its head?

Maglor's take on Turgon, now that I think about it, probably doesn't differ too much to Maedhros thoughts about Thingol's land-lending policies - or the Dúnedain' attitude towards the people of Bree and the Shire disregarding the Rangers while profiting from their work.