Comments on About words

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The Athrabeth has in some ways always seemed to me to present a very one-sided view of things, despite being framed as a dialogue. (On the other hand, as far as it is true dialogue,  I suspect it was  a way for Tolkien to articulate some of his own doubts rather than a female POV).  What we are given there does not sound all that much like traditional oral story-telling, as far as I remember, but I suppose it wouldn't, once Finrod had got his mitts on it, by your logic.

So you think that mortal aging bothered Aegnor more than he or Finrod were prepared to admit? Or am I getting that wrong?



Hi! Thanks for reviewing. ^^ I'm not really all that sure of that. I'm fairly sure Andreth was convinced of it though, and believed herself scorned for it. She speaks of not bothering Aegnor in her old age and such, and throughout the whole conversation seems to believe her aging is the problem. As she was a wise woman of her people I'm going to assume she wasn't entirely stupid, and had reasons for thinking an Elf could possibly have trouble with the reality of human aging, even if it might not actually have been Aegnor's reason for leaving her. Finrod says he is sure that was really not the reason tries to convince Andreth that Aegnor left out of a sense of duty/Eldarin tradition of not marying during wartime/foresight about his own death, but she doesn't seem entirely convinced by the end of the conversation. I thought it would be interesting to focus on that. Considering the Noldor are, uhm, well, the Noldor, it's quite likely he really did leave out of a sense of duty, though. Who knows? This was more of an attempt to channel some Andreth-anger, so if it appears a lot like a bitter one-sided rant, that's because it is. :P It does seem logical it would bother them more than they'd like to admit though. The whole "let's dwell in separate places" thing, some sentence I can't quote but am sure to have read about elves bing really upset by their human friends just randomly aging and dying without obvious outside cause etc being on of the reasons for that? Not really sure about it being the reason, but that did come up at some point. Some things do hint at some sort of...distain or lack of understanding on their part at least. "The sickly" doesn't sound very possitive about human weakness, just to mention one thing. 

The idea of early human culture being more of storytelling than a writing one came from how Andreth says she came by the tale of the "fall": "This is the tale that Adanel of the House of Hador told to me" and also what she says about rumours and the tales of their origins being more or less vague stories and guesses. I wanted to have som fun with the elvish need for permanence urge vs. human fleetingness so I grabbed that and went off with it. How canon the idea really is I'm not sure, but oh well. :)

I quite enjoyed this.  There is a certain condescention by other races toward mortal Men in the Athrabeth and elsewhere in Tolkien, and it was refreshing to have another vantage point on issues of mortality/immortality.  The long-lived flowers provide an interesting and vaguely creepy image.



Thank you. Oh definitely. Arwen and her whole nice little "I took them for wicked fools" comment is just another thing that springs to mind when it comes to Elven/human cultural relations. And she marries a human and has a lot of human ancestors! And doesn't come across as a particularly opiniated or ill tempered person exactly - which just leaves us to imagine what some of the more hot tempered non human-loving people might have thought...

Haha, glad the flowers worked for you. I actually stole that idea from an entirely different Tolkien story - the smith of Wootton Major. Of course the undying flowers are positive in that, but somehow it became this creepy...thing. It's a nice story, though it doesn't have much to do with Middle Earth. 

This is the story that made me like Andreth!!

I read this a while back (I didn't review then...I'm sorry!) and I'm so glad I stumbled across it again. It's such an amazing story! I never disliked Andreth or anything, but I pretty much dismissed her as uninteresting until I read this.

Okay, let me stop gushing and do a proper (if very long overdue) review...

I really, really like her persepective on the elves. These lines especially stood out to me:

"There are those of us who call you, for all your might, for all your beauty, the Embalmers. For the natural changes in this new world, our world, fill you with sadness and disgust."

"But you do not understand why that is a bad thing, and I cannot blame you. After all, you are forever. It is only natural you want everything else to be too."

The idea of the Edain having a oral tradition that Andreth refuses to let go of is a great one, as well. For one thing, their different opinions on the matter beatifully illustrate their differing worldviews. For another, I think Finrod is kind of condescending to humans, assuming his ways are better. I love that Andreth kind of calls him on that, refusing to accept his "greater wisdom" and follow his custom instead of her own. I also like that she brings up Amarie, and points out that even she is only unchanging in his memory.

When talking about how her own story will be remembered, I liked the line "No doubt it will not say anything how we really lived through any of it..." because the Silmarillion is kind of written that way. It says a lot of who did what, but it leaves out much of the feelings and experiences that must have gone along with those actions and events.

I think the "rather mean reference" of a last line was the perfect conclusion for this story. Finrod in the Athrabeth seems very intent on justifying the differing fates of Men and elves. I like that even here she's sort of taking a shot at him and chalenging his beliefs, if not for their accuracy then at least for their fairness. 

Wow, that got really long, I'm sorry...I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed this, and that Andreth (who I'd once ignored as boring) is one of my favorite characters because of this story. Thank you for writing this!! I'm sorry I didn't say so sooner.

I appreciate this take, and the tone. I like the way you describe the flatness of writing things down versus the vibrancy of oral tradition, how the former becomes staid in it's unchangingness, while the later lives and grows and morphs, although both easily end up not telling the original tale. The one-dimensionality of Finrod's account reflecting things as he understood them and not necessarily as they were expressed. "And the Song goes on, sorrowless." indeed. Impassive, unemotional, continual.

Thank you very much for providing Andreth's side! There's so much about the Athrabeth that I love, yet also so much that feels very patriarchal, and patronising. I really love the concept of the Edain's oral tradition passed on through the generations, and very much agree that while writen words may keep the same forever, they lose the life transferred through spoken word. And much as I love Finrod and his friendship with the Edain, he's needed a good, honest talking to!

I enjoyed this, thank you!