Interview with Zhie by Shadow by Zhie, daughterofshadows

Mereth Aderthad Interview: Interview with Zhie by Shadow

At Mereth Aderthad 2025, Zhie will be presenting on "How to Make a Star from a Tree: The Science of Telperion and Laurelin," which considers various scientific (versus mythic and folkloric) approaches to the light of the Two Trees. Shadow spoke with Zhie about Zhie's upcoming paper, its inspirations in Zhie's earlier work on the science of the Silmarils, the rewards and challenges of tackling a scientific topic as a nonscientist, and the potential benefits of crosspollination between the fannish and scholarly realms. You can listen to a recording of their discussion and read a transcript below.

Listen to Shadow's interview with Zhie here.

Transcript

Shadow: I'm sitting down with Zhie today to talk about Zhie's presentation, "How to Make a Star from a Tree: The Science of Telperion and Laurelin" for our Mereth Aderthad 2025 interview sessions. So thank you, Zhie, for joining me today.

Zhie: Sure. No problem.

Shadow: We'll start off easy with the simple questions. Is there any previous works you want us to highlight for this, for this, presentation that can be fan works that can be scholarly works, whatever you've got.

Zhie: Well, this presentation is one that came out of work that was done on a previous presentation for the 2024 Oxonmoot, which was on the science of the Silmarils. And what happened while I was doing the research for that is I went down a rabbit hole about the Two Trees. And later on, when, Nuinzillien has been gracious enough to be my editor on the first paper—and, hopefully, will still do that on the second one—and when we were going through things, there was a big chunk in the initial paper about the Silmarils that she noted was really its own thing because I started going into just all sorts of stuff about the Trees, which I found fascinating when I was doing the research, but she was absolutely correct.

It was its own thing. So when this opportunity came up to utilize that research that had been done that I thought was really interesting, it was just the right time for the right opportunity. So I guess that would be the work that connects into this, more than anything else.

Shadow: Alright, I think that also kind of already summarizes why you chose your presentation topic. Though, if you want to add any more, like how you got into the Silmarils in the first place, feel free to do that.

Zhie: So with the first one, in terms of how that even happened, I was, they had a viewing at Marquette—which I'm fortunate enough to live extremely close to the Marquette campus and have had many opportunities to go to the Tolkien archives there—and there was a showing a few years back where they had brought in works from the Baldwin Library and they had a collection of what was at Marquette with these other works. It was very Silmarillion-slanted more than anything else, if I had to to choose something there in terms of what the overall vibe was. And there were images that I'd seen in the books before, I'd seen on display before.

But the way that things were displayed there, it was done in such a way that there were focuses on certain things that maybe I hadn't seen in that way before. And it was looking at the Fëanorian symbol on the doors of Moria, and there is a dot in the middle. And that might seem extremely insignificant, but when it comes to gemstones and the cutting of them and what stones can be cut in what ways, it actually becomes extremely significant. And that was what sent me down the path in terms of the Silmarils because I had probably a half-dozen moments all converging at the same time as I was looking at that image where previous scientific knowledge was just kind of colliding with each other. And so it's been a multiyear process with that first paper that has now led into this second paper.

Shadow: Fascinating! In your proposal, you've been talking a bit about how you're combining IRL [in real life] sciences, like biochemistry and stuff, with fiction. I'm curious. How does the research process for something like that work? How did you, like, go and find anything on, well, not really anything, but how did you go about, like, looking at the starting point and then trying to make that into yeah: What happens if you make Trees glow really brightly?

Zhie: So the things that I was learning about the Trees were really what I guess I would classify in the happy accidents category. What I was doing a lot of the concentration on the Silmarils, and so when I approach research that I'm going to be doing or I'm going to be presenting on something, and this is probably very much based on my occupation as a librarian, I'm not looking for just, like, one or two sources to begin with. I build my own private library of research based on whatever the topic is. So to begin with and the reason that this was such a lengthy process, I was utilizing not only print materials but also delving into a lot of articles through databases. I'm very fortunate that I have access to a number of research databases, and what I didn't have access to, I was able to go through interlibrary loan to get the majority of what I was looking for.

I was also going into certain databases, like patent databases for the various compositions of things, and the carving of the different gemstones. And so there were a lot of facets, no pun intended, to the research process for this. And because I was just gathering everything to begin with, that's how the parts about the Trees were making their way into it because in the text there there has to be some connection between the light in the Silmarils and the light of the Trees, and it's figuring out whether or not that is identical light or whether it is something that is nearly identical or maybe it is something completely different. So I didn't start off on that part of it with trying to prove something specific. I was allowing myself to read and absorb a lot of different possibilities and then bring forth the conclusions that made the most sense with what was going on.

And there's a couple of things along the way that I found that just meshed up so well that it became a case of I've just kind of stumbled into certain things. And then some of it with the research was looking historically at who else Tolkien had any, crossing of paths with, especially what were other professors at Oxford doing at the time because from my own experiences also, being a college instructor, I end up hearing about research being done by other people that I I'm not involved in directly, but I end up just finding out about things or in some cases, maybe reading a chapter of someone's, you know, book that they're gonna be publishing. And so there's all of these other bits of knowledge outside of my particular realm and I had to kind of, just go down the path of what if the similar things were happening for Tolkien, in terms of hearing other things that were going on with other, others who were in Oxford or in various places he was in or even just who were scientifically doing things at that same time and then also backtracking to when he was in college what would he have been exposed to in terms of, what were the scientific discoveries that were happening at that time.

So there were a lot of different things that I was looking at with this before I got to a point where I started actually writing the paper. I at one point had I think it was about sixty-five library books that were stacked up, here that I had so many Post-It notes in and those those were the ones that I had chosen. I had gone through a lot more volumes beyond that that I didn't end up using. And I had a three-inch three ring binder that was packed full of all of the, all of the various articles and things and all of the notes and and and such from that. So it was a very long process getting to where things are now.

Shadow: I can imagine! That sounds not only super, super interesting, but also very, very extensive. Are the Silmarils a special interest area for you in Tolkien, or is that just something that came with that Marquette exhibition that you mentioned?

Zhie: I think I've always had an interest in what Fëanor was up to, and the Silmarils are a big part of that.

Shadow: Yeah. That's fair.

Zhie: When I look at some of the things, like, earlier fanfiction writings that I was doing, I was manifesting that the whole, okay, Fëanor may have done some questionable things, but isn't it pretty cool that he went and discovered this or made this or whatever it happened to be? And I was going and and manifesting that through, Erestor being kind of a Fëanor fanboy, and that was kind of, I guess, in a way, I was kind of throwing that in there into fanfiction because personally I think a lot of the things, you know, when you look at what Fëanor was doing are pretty cool things that he did. Again, not everybody makes the best choices on all of the other things, but can we just talk about the stuff he created? And so with, with the Silmarils and and there's other things as well, but with the Silmarils especially, there are so many times coming across things in readings as I was acclimating and understanding the wide range of everything in Tolkien's works over the past few decades as I've been exploring things in Middle-earth and Tolkien's writings.

But there are so many things with the Silmarils where they're just kind of, like, written off as, yeah, it's kinda like a magical thing. Don't worry about it. Like, don't think about it. It's fine. And it just felt like there had to be something else there and, and that it was just a matter of it was a riddle that had to be figured out.

And, you know, I don't wanna delve too much into, you know, everything that's in the the Silmaril paper, but, I think one of the the big things for me is with the Silmarils, there's a mention of of adamant and how it's stronger than adamant and okay. But adamant didn't always mean just diamond. So then you start getting into the history of words, which, you know, hey. I know a guy who is into that and happens to be the guy who wrote this stuff. So, you know, going down those different paths and sort of just analyzing and, you know, doing a lot of what ifs on things, gets to a point of, yeah, there's actually a possibility of how you could make a Silmaril.

So, you know, and I think that that was I think that that's not the only thing that Tolkien has, riddles that he hid in there that as years go on, people will figure out, oh, this is actually, you know, this other thing or this is what he meant by this, because he was very clever in terms of the wordsmithing and and such. And, you know, I think some of those details might be a little bit more hidden, but, yeah, I think there's still things to discover in what he's written. And for me, I just I guess I took it upon myself that, like, I was gonna figure out the Silmarils.

Shadow: I mean, that is so understandable. I'm a physicist, so I'm very excited to hear your paper just because it overlaps with some of my interest areas, as well. And, I mean, the Silmarils are really cool. There's nothing about it. I mean, what happened with them afterwards, not quite as much, but they are really neat. So I totally understand the fascination.

We're doing these interviews, obviously, to introduce the presentations and the presenters.

Now your topic might seem a bit scary to a lot of the audience members who might not be too into the science stuff. How much of a science background do they have to have, what do we have to expect in terms of the fancy words and specifics? Or will it be perfectly fine to listen to for lay people as well?

Zhie: It's going to be fine. I am not a scientist, by any means. I think science and math are very, very cool. I was in a science- and math-based track back when I was in elementary school and stayed in the math track when I was in middle school. And then, like, I wandered off somewhere and didn't end up doing those things occupationally. But I just think there's a lot of things in science that are very interesting. But I think sometimes with both science and math, people tend to shy away from them because of terminology that gets used or the idea that, oh, I'll take meteorology as an example.

I took a meteorology course in college. Right? And I was like, I like clouds. I would like to look at clouds and know what the clouds mean and things like that. And I think, like, week two, they were like, and look at all of this math that you need to figure out to know the clouds.

And I was like, just tell me what the ones that look like, what they're called and stuff, and tell me which ones are gonna be snow and which ones are gonna be rain. Like, I don't necessarily wanna get mired down in some of the parts where it becomes less fun, and I totally understand that some people are really intrigued by that. Like, my father does calculus equations for fun. So this is a thing that happens, you know, with certain individuals. Me, I just wanna look at the clouds.

I wanna look at the clouds and the stars, and I would like to be able to figure out how they do stuff. But then at a certain point, I just wanna enjoy the fact that they exist. And so when I was coming up with how the presentation was going to be on the Silmaril, paper, I realized I had to back away from some of the quantum physics type, stuff, which that, side note, that was a trip because when I realized, last year that I was getting into the realm of quantum physics, you're gonna laugh at this one. I've never taken a physics class formally. So I had to teach myself quantum physics in three weeks so that I could finish the paper because I knew what I had stumbled into, but I didn't completely understand what I had stumbled into.

So I had to first teach myself about it, then I had to go back and finish the paper because it was like seeing the thing on the other side but having to build a bridge to get there. And so, in regards to the presentation of that, I did a lot of visuals to explain things and more in terms of the explaining and less in terms of the terminology because I'm not going to just assume that everyone would know when I'm throwing something out there, what that is. And so in regards to the paper on the trees, it's going to be very similar in terms of how that will be presented. There will be a lot of visuals in the presentation to explain, what it is that I've, you know, that I've put together in terms of that, especially glowing mushrooms because that is a path that I went down that I'm not entirely, I guess I should say also, you know, I I think that there is something to be said about presenting the things that you came upon that you were like, tried this, thought about it, not the thing, but still cool.

So glowing mushrooms. But that doesn't figure in directly with the Two Trees. Just a theory, probably not the one that sticks. So I would say that you don't have to have a background in science to enjoy the presentation.

Shadow: I'm sure that is very relieving for everybody to hear who was worried about that.

And to be fair, I have taken multiple courses on quantum physics and I would still be very happy to not have any quantum physics in Tolkien presentations. Now that you've mentioned the glowing mushrooms, maybe we can wrap up with a question about what you are hoping people are going to take away from your presentation? Like, if you had to hold it right now, what do you hope I would take away from it when we end this call?

Zhie: Well, I think that one of my big things just with everything that I've been doing with this is that, I feel like, sometimes and I don't know if this is specifically just with, this particular, fandom and the scholarship done in this fandom.

It may be the same in other fandoms of scholarship, there. I don't have as much experience in most other fandoms. The one that I do have experience with honestly is such a small fandom that anytime somebody does something, like, people are like, yay, more stuff. So, I mean, there's never a question in that other realm. But I think what I've seen sometimes or overheard sometimes, you know, and it depends on who you've encountered.

I was very fortunate that my experiences, visiting Marquette, going to events that were in the area, getting to meet more Tolkien scholars than I think most people got to in the first five years that I was in this fandom and doing stuff. There was a lot of positivity. There was a lot of “let me tell you some info that you don't necessarily know and that might not necessarily even be able to be found easily in a book or on the Internet”. I remember things when The Nature of Middle-earth came out. There were things people were talking about, and I was like, no.

We all know this. Don't we all know this? And I realized, no. No. We don't all know this.

These were things getting talked about at dinner parties or after talks when I was in the room with someone that, you know, knew things. And so I was really, really fortunate that I was able to have the experiences that I did and that they were so positive. But I do not always see that being talked about in that way by everyone. And, between things that I heard at a presentation that was done at Oxonmoot where it was, like, very disturbing types of things that were being talked about, between things that I see posted on Tumblr or talked about in Discord, that not everyone has had those positive nurturing experiences when they start going into the scholarly side of things. And that there's almost, in some cases, a thought that you have to be an expert in whatever it is that you're talking about before you get to go and do the thing.

Up until, you know, doing this these last few years, I pretty much stayed in my lane with a lot of genealogy-based things because that's what I have in my background. So it made sense that someone with a certificate in genealogy would be talking about genealogy. But after a while, you start to kinda get bored with the same stuff, and you have thoughts about other things. And so at the end of the day, I don't think you necessarily have to be an expert in whatever the thing is. If you have a curiosity for it and you have thoughts and ideas to go and explore it, you should be able to go and do that.

Nobody should be shoed into this thought of you are only an artist or you are only a fanfic writer or you are only a scholar or whatever. We should all be able to go into different parts of the sandbox and do different things. And so I you know, again, I think that, you know, being able to do this presentation, being fortunate enough to get chosen in with the Oxonmoot papers to be able to present there. You know, I feel like in a way they're kind of taking a chance on me going, oh, yeah. So this is the person with, like, the Mr. Bliss selfie stuff and who comes and plays LOTRO [Lord of the Rings Online] as a panel at 11:00 at night and does a bunch of other silly things and suddenly telling us that they figured out how to make a Silmaril. They could have turned around and been like, yeah. Hard pass. But instead, they were like, let's see what's gonna happen here, and I appreciate that. And so I hope that, you know, more of that kind of thing happens and there's, you know, more people who when they have thoughts about different things.

You know? And I'll see some really interesting stuff that people will talk about on Tumblr, but they're like, oh, but I'm not a scholar, so I'm not gonna go into that. Well, I hope that this kind of, you know, helps to nudge people who have ideas to think, hey. Maybe maybe I'll try doing that. And it, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, a major long, you know, thing with sixty-five books and thirty pages later, but sometimes that does happen.

But, you know, you can kinda, you know, start to get your feet wet and try it out. And so I hope that, you know, it will kind of help to encourage those who maybe thought that they, you know, that they weren't able to because you can. You can do it.

Shadow: Yeah. You definitely can. I mean, I'm also taking my first steps into scholarship with Mereth Aderthad and specifically because it's such a small event. And I was like, yeah, let's start small and talk about this. But yeah, I hope I hope we succeed in that goal to encourage more people to share their thoughts because there are so many awesome people with so many awesome ideas in the fandom that you deserve to be heard by the scholarly side as well, especially since they not always think about those specific topics that the fandom people are more interested in.

Zhie: Right. Well, and I think too, you know, thinking about like fandom-type things, I have lost count of the number of times I have read through certain chapters of The Silmarillion for fanfic, you know, to be able to do different things to make sure I've got things accurate. And so after a while, like, I I think that, you know, there are individuals who have an immense amount of knowledge that they have absorbed and that they can recall much faster. You know, there have been times that I've, you know, had chats with various scholars that, you know, in my mind, it's like, this person knows way more, and then they're going, oh, who's who is the and I'm like, are you talking about Fingolfin? And they're like, yeah. Yeah.

That guy. And I'm like, oh, how did you forget that guy? But then I, like, gotta back it up and be like, you know what? We're all in different places. We all focus on different things.

We've all got different experiences. And so there is a lot of knowledge in, you know, in in in that realm of those who are creating derivative works and, yeah, it'd be fascinating to see, you know, for some of those individuals who, again, are not necessarily, doing anything, you know, scholarly, like, to try it because you probably have some ideas that nobody else thought of because you're taking it from a different angle.

Shadow: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me tonight and I hope this has given our listeners a really fascinating insight into your paper and they are all looking forward to Mereth Aderthad now. I certainly am. I have been waiting for this basically since I heard you were going to present on the how to make a Silmaril at Oxonmoot and I didn't make it to Oxonmoot. So I'm very excited to hear this paper now.

Zhie: Excellent. Well, I'm looking forward to it.

Shadow: Wonderful.