Interview with Flora-lass by Anérea by Flora-lass, Anérea  

Listen to the audio of Anérea's interview with Flora-lass here.

Helen, who's known as Flora-lass on the SWG, chose to write a poem for Stella's Mereth Aderthad presentation, "Cherished Antagonist, Despised Protagonist - A Defense of Elu Thingol." I grabbed the opportunity to chat with her about her fanworks, poetry in general, this poem in particular, and we jumped around various other tangents.

So I'm going to dive straight in: let's start with your Tolkien history and what it is about his work that excites you, and what about it inspires you to create fanworks?

Helen: So, I'm an older Tolkien fan. My first introduction to Tolkien didn't go very well. I was about nine, I think, and a teacher who I didn't like read The Hobbit to us at school, and that put me off rather, unfortunately! But then, when I was about to get married, my now ex-husband introduced me to Tolkien again. And although we did eventually go our separate ways, it's something that I'm so grateful to him for.

He was also a teacher, and he was teaching The Hobbit at school, and he encouraged me to read it. And then I read his single-volume Lord of the Rings, which didn't have the Appendices (I realized later what a huge lack that was). So, yes, I read those and loved them, and this was in the late 1980s. And then I finally read The Silmarillion in 1992, and then didn't read it again for more than thirty years! But I joined the Tolkien Society, and my interest ended up far outstripping that of the person who'd introduced me to him.

Anérea: That's wonderful. I can totally understand why having a teacher you didn't like would ruin The Hobbit for you, but I'm so glad that you did get back into it.

Helen: Just to say what excites me—I think one of my favourite parts is the Appendices, actually. I think that's because I missed them to begin with! Once I discovered them, I was so excited; that whole sense of history and all the details, and also the fact that it was so real. I remember saying to somebody, when I joined a local Tolkien Society group. "It's all so real, it hurts!" You know, there were things like plagues, and death in childbirth and, I know that sounds really sad, but just all these details.

I also loved the Council of Elrond, with all these different people coming together. And of course, The Silmarillion; some parts of it somehow reminded me of the Bible, and I loved that.

Anérea: You know, now that you say that you particularly enjoy the Appendices, I now understand where a lot of your concepts come from, because they are very often unique and seldom-if-ever-explored takes. And you really explore what for me is also one of my favorite parts of the legendarium: all these little tantalizing bits that hang around the edges; they're just so rich with possibility. So it doesn't surprise me at all that you enjoy the Appendices, and also the Council of Elrond, which a lot of people don’t like as they see it as such a long, boring chapter because there's no action in it, while for me it's also one of the most interesting ones because of all these little tantalizing tidbits. I think that's wonderful.

Helen: Thank you. And, actually, just to say, I also love Unfinished Tales. And in fact, in my second big phase of Tolkien appreciation, which started about two years ago, I finally read Unfinished Tales properly, and there's so much in there that really inspires me. And, also, I will say The Children of Húrin, which is so tragic (and it does touch on Thingol, of course), but there's so much in there that moves me, and I think it's inspired me to write quite a bit of what I've written.

Anérea: I really love what you said “it's so real, it hurts”. That is such a key element of Tolkien and so true.

More than half of your fanworks published on the SWG are poetry of various forms. And, okay, full disclosure here, I am very ignorant when it comes to poetry. School sadly educated all enjoyment of poetry out of me to the point that I even skipped all the poems and songs when I read The Lord of the Rings in my early teens. (But many years later I felt a bit vindicated when a friend related how a local poet came to talk at his school (my school would never do something so wonderful) and the poet first talked about the meaning of his poetry and his intentions, etc., but then finished by warning them not to mention any of that in the exams as they'd be marked wrong and they needed to stick to the approved nonsense that was the education department's analysis!) So I just had this idea that most poetry was boring. I enjoyed "Kubla Khan," and there was one of Ogden Nash's, "Very Like a Whale," which I appreciated, but largely ignored the stuff, until I was drawn back to Middle-earth, thanks to the films. And in my desire for more Tolkien, I discovered what I thought was new Tolkien work, including The Lays of Beleriand. And I was initially dismayed to find it was all verse but, desperate for more, I still bought the book. And I was astonished that I enjoyed it so much! Even my thoughts started flowing in meter and rhyme for a while.

But then I forgot about poetry again until I joined the SWG, where I've been absolutely delighted to find a whole new enjoyment of poetry, first in Himring's work and then in others, including yours. So thinking about my history with poetry, I was wondering about you. Have you always enjoyed poetry or what's your experience of poetry been like?

Helen: It's really strange how a lot of what I write seems to come out in poetry, because I don't read a great deal of it!

I remember having one good school experience. I think I was about twelve-thirteen, and our class were all encouraged to write a poem and to read it out, and we all did. And we all felt, actually, we're quite good at this. And, you know, we were encouraged in that way, that anybody could write. And that's probably stayed with me. And sometimes reading too much other poetry makes me think I'm not very good at it, and it sort of puts me off doing it! But I quite like listening to radio programmes where poems are read. I do that every so often, and I always enjoy it.

Of course, I studied some poetry for school exams. I'm trying to think what we did now. Actually, Coleridge, you mentioned "Kubla Khan", didn't you? And, yes, I did that as well. And—"Christabel"? Did he write that? It's a long time ago now! And "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner". And then, trying to think what I did at the next level up. Oh, Milton!

Anérea: Oh, yes. I also had Milton in school.

Helen: What was the other?—oh, W.H. Auden, who I think had some contact with Tolkien? I found him quite difficult!

Anérea: Yes. I've actually never read his works.

Helen: So apart from Tolkien himself, I can't actually think of many particular poets or poetry that I keep coming back to. But I do really like—I'm quite religious—I do really like things like hymns. They're quite an inspiration to me.

And maybe other songs as well. I sometimes imagine things to music. Although I'm not very musical really, I don't write music or anything like that, but I sometimes imagine something I’m writing set to an existing tune. (The closest thing to a song I've written, called "Those Merry Young Folk", is like that).

Anérea: Oh, wow. That's fascinating.

Helen: I must confess I haven't read all of Tolkien's poetry yet—the very long poems. There again, when I hear it read as part of the audiobooks, Beren and Lúthien, for example, I love hearing it, which, of course, is the same as reading in a way. But I think I find it easier to listen to than to read.

Anérea: I can relate to that, and being able to hear the author themselves reading it, because often we've got the words, but it changes when people add their own emphasis to it. So I think it definitely gives it a different quality when you hear it spoken.

Helen: And I hope that's the case, because I have actually said that I'd like to read my poem for Mereth Aderthad myself, live. It's a bit nerve-wracking, but I feel I'd like to do it, and I'm thinking about how I will read it and that I need to try and be quite slow so that everyone can understand, and how to get the expression just right so it comes across as I intend it to. That feels like quite a responsibility in a way!

Anérea: I think that's absolutely wonderful. I'm so delighted to hear that you're going to be reading your own poem, which I’d like to ask you about. So, one of the benefits of designing the fanzine is I get to preview all the works (and I can say it's a fabulous and diverse collection of fanworks! and you've written a lovely sonnet for Mereth Aderthad, for Stella's defense of Elu Thingol. I was wondering what aspects of her proposal grabbed you. And without giving away too much, would you like to talk a bit about your poem and how the idea came to you? Because it has a surprising and original viewpoint.

Helen: So I think Stella's proposal grabbed me, firstly, because it was about a particular character, and my poems are often like that. They're often in the first person, trying to convey someone's thoughts and feelings.

And Thingol was someone I hadn't written a poem about before, and I've always found him very interesting. I perhaps wasn't quite as aware until I read Stella's proposal of how unpopular he seems to be. Although, of course, I understand why people dislike him. He makes a lot of mistakes—but I do think he pays for them very dearly. And, as I say, I find him so interesting. and Stella had asked for positive or at least nuanced views of him, and I was very willing to write about him in that way; I'm quite kindly disposed towards him. So it all started from there, really.

Originally, I thought I would try and write him defending himself. A lot of my poems rhyme, because I like the challenge, but occasionally they don't. And at first, I thought maybe it's going to be one of those that doesn't rhyme, where he tries to say this is why I did x, y, and z.

But then I got into conversation with Stella, who is so knowledgeable about Thingol and has such interesting thoughts, and we talked about all kinds of things. And I started thinking about how Thingol must feel about Finwë, who had been his friend and then eventually disappears over the sea, leaving him behind, and the different ways their lives go. And I thought he must have such complicated feelings about Finwë. So we talked about that for quite a while, and I think I would still like to write a poem about Thingol and Finwë. But in the end, we arrived at the Silmaril, and I realized that the Silmaril plays, obviously, such a huge part in Thingol's life, towards the end. And I remember at one point saying to Stella, I actually think I could write a whole poem just about the Silmaril; and that's pretty much what I ended up doing. I don't know whether I should give away the main point, the main aspect of my poem—perhaps not. But, yes, I did end up writing a sonnet, which is just called "Of Thingol and the Silmaril".

Anérea: I think it's an absolutely fantastic take, and I'm really excited for other people to get to read it. So, yes, I don't want to give too much away. But, that's such an interesting pathway to the creation of it. I was also actually wondering about when you write your own poetry, how your process looks, whether you decide on a form before you commence or whether the form follows your subject, or if you're kind of more like me where I find out what I'm doing only once I see it on paper.

Helen: I think it varies. I quite often decide on the form beforehand, if there is a form. I'm not even sure there always is! Sometimes I think about what the whole point of the poem is going to be, but the content, that normally only comes when I start writing—but there's normally been a lot of thought before I actually write anything at all. As I said, I do quite like the challenge of rhyming, and in fact, it almost feels a bit lazy if I don't! I know that sounds strange. But something like a sonnet, where you've got the fourteen lines and the set number of syllables and a rhyme scheme, I really enjoy that challenge, and juggling words around and trying to sound natural and fairly elegant while having reasonable rhymes, it's just something I take a lot of pleasure in, I think.

Sorry, I can't remember what the original question was!

Anérea: No. That doesn't matter. You're talking about your poetry and your form and your process. So that also answers my question. You just follow the flow of it, where it takes you.

Helen: Yes, I think so. Although I will just say sometimes I'll get the first line first and sometimes I'll get the last couple of lines; something will hit me, or maybe the title even. And once I've got that starting point, I will then often dash something off, and I'll think, no. No. That isn't very good. But now I've got something to work with. Some of my first attempts are awful!

But I will say, with "Of Thingol and the Silmaril" I did get the first line first, once I'd decided on how it was going to go, and then I had the first eight lines or so relatively easily, but the last six were more of a challenge. But I got there in the end!

Anérea: So, ultimately, there's a balance in it. I was also wondering what inspires you to create fanworks? (I realized, although I did creative nonfiction writing before I joined the SWG in 2021 just as an artist, I didn't consider actually writing fanfiction or anything. But then it was the inaugural year of Scribbles & Drabbles, and the minimum word count was just a hundred words. I'd signed up as an artist, but then that thought surely I could do a hundred words, so I signed up as an author as well. And the first thing I found myself writing was actually a poem! So the Silmarillion Writers' Guild has really been quite interesting in that regard. While we were chatting before the interview you mentioned how you started creating fanworks, and you never really thought that you'd be doing that. Would you like to share a bit more about that?

Helen: Yes sure. Absolutely. What you said there about getting involved in events and so on—I'm just starting to do that. I've ended up signing up for TRSB and claiming some art, which I never thought I'd do! Well, I do think I'll write some poetry treats, but I've actually ended up committing myself to writing something that's 5,000 words plus (not poetry!), which is a whole different matter! But my bursts of writing poetry have tended to coincide with fandom, being very into a particular fandom, or something similar, although they haven't all been about the subject of the fandom.

So this time, it all started, when I got back into Tolkien just about two years ago now. Not that I'd ever really gone away, but I'd never been involved in the online fandom before, because there wasn't such a thing back in the late ‘80s/early ‘90s. And so, I first found a group called Alliance of Arda, who actually met on Zoom for discussions and I really, really enjoyed those. And then I found SWG and, although I wasn't writing anything at that point, I joined in September 2023. And then, of course, I discovered the monthly challenges, and they've really been the thing that have got me going. I don't think I'd have started writing Tolkien-based poetry at all if it hadn't been for those, because I took part in a challenge in October '23. I actually wrote and submitted something (that wasn't a rhyming poem, actually). It was for a song-title prompt, called Fly Like an Eagle, and it was about Fingon rescuing Maedhros, which seemed like a very presumptuous, big subject to tackle for my very first poem! But I did it, and you very kindly left me a comment and encouraged me.

And it all started from there. So, yes, the challenges have made such a difference. I'd only written one sonnet before in my life, and then there was the Experimental challenge, and I thought, I'm going to try writing another sonnet. I've mentioned my love of Unfinished Tales, and I wrote a sonnet about Thranduil, the very traumatized Thranduil, who's on his way home with his depleted army from the War of the Last Alliance. And on I went, really! I've forgotten the question again. I'm sorry, I'm terrible at this! Am I answering it?

Anérea: You're absolutely answering! We're just talking about your poetry in general and writing fanworks, your fanwork poetry. And I remember your sonnet about Thranduil as well: again, just in those few lines, you packed such an emotional punch. And again you explore these viewpoints from an angle which is often so unique. I really love that about your work. It's just sort of opening up a new vista of the same thing, only from a different angle. And I absolutely love that.

Helen: Thank you. And, of course, I don't quite realize that I'm doing that. It's just the way it comes to me. I don't know if anything about this is to do with the fact that I'm visually impaired, and maybe the way I imagine things is different. I don't really think much about how things look. You know, it's all about thoughts and feelings and maybe sounds, and that may have some bearing, I think. I've got some sight but not much, and certainly not at any distance. I can read quite well very close-up, but unless I'm very close, I can't really see people's faces. I can't make eye contact or see their expressions or anything like that. So if I do ever write about anything like, say, the look in someone's eyes—it's secondhand. It's not something I've ever experienced myself.

Anérea: That actually makes a lot of sense because the other senses become stronger. So you'll be sort of more in tune to, as you say, less visual cues, which people who are relying on visual stuff might not pick up. It's so interesting how people experience things so differently.

Helen: Actually, just on that topic, something I should also say is that despite my visual impairment, I do sometimes get inspired by art, especially art of characters, depictions of characters. And, some of my poems have been inspired by paintings that a friend who I met through the fandom has done. One about Maedhros and the burning ships, and one about Finrod; even Beleg to some extent. So, yes, oddly, I can be inspired by art as well. It's a strange thing, which of course is partly how I got into TRSB as well.

Anérea: I can totally understand that from what you've described of your experience. I can relate to how art, specifically more than the world in general, could inspire your writing. And I really love what you craft with your writing.

Helen: Because I can get really close to it and spend time just looking at it and zoom in, and it's there for as long as I need it to be there.

Anérea: Yes. That's one of the wonderful things about digital art as well is, as you say, you can zoom into it and sort of go into the detail and notice things that you wouldn't otherwise in passing.

Helen: Absolutely.

Anérea: So I was also wondering, what you would like your readers to receive from your poetry in general and also from your Mereth Aderthad sonnet. (The author's version, not the school board version!)

Helen: Oh goodness, I haven't quite thought …

Anérea: That's okay, because I was also wondering, when you write, whether you're writing really for yourself or whether you're writing for your readers, with your readers in mind, or a sort of mixture?

Helen: I think, well, because at the moment, I mainly only share what I write on the SWG archive (and, of course, some people are lovely and leave comments), but compared to AO3, I don't suppose there are as many people reading them. I'm always really happy if people seem to enjoy them and think they're not too bad, But I think the process of actually creating them is such a joy, and having them there afterwards. I look at my list of what I've written and (even though none of them are very long), I think, how on earth have I done all this, when two years ago I'd done nothing? And it's just such a nice feeling to have been able to create something. When I think I am somebody who generally in life is not very good at finishing things and deadlines and so on. Although having said that, having a deadline is sometimes really helpful, and that's been the case with the SWG challenges. They've really helped me, I think, get things done. Although I haven't only written for the challenges, but they've helped me feel that I can actually produce something, and encouraged me to write other things as well.

But I really do hope, if people do read them, that they enjoy them. And if I start chatting with someone who seems interested, I'm starting to think, oh, I wonder which one would appeal to them. And it's nice to have a few to choose from! That sounds a bit self-centered, but does that make sense?

Anérea: Oh, absolutely!

Helen: I'm building up my collection.

Anérea: Yeah, I also relate to how the fanworks just build up. And I love that when you're having a conversation with someone and you're chatting with them, that you sort of match them up with your fanworks, which ones they would enjoy. That's one of the magical things about this fandom. I mean, I'm monofandom …

Helen: Yeah. Me too.

Anérea: Yeah, really mainly in the SWG. I find the rest all sort of overwhelming.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah. Me too.

Anérea: And I just love this cozy little corner. And what I really love about it is being able to read people's works when you know the people as well. And then just having, as that meme goes, you know, it's all cake. And it's all different flavors and sizes of cake, and they're all delicious in their own unique ways. And the whole point of it, of the community, is to share the stuff. So it's not self-centered at all. That's who we're making this stuff for: for ourselves and for other people.

Helen: Do you mind if I say something else about this that's quite sort of relevant? When I first joined SWG and I was doing my introduction post and saying that I was maybe thinking about writing poetry, people were so encouraging, and somebody said that exact thing about cake. Because I will say that, before I'd got to that point, but when I was getting back into Tolkien—I've always been very fond of Legolas and Gimli (who, of course, are not Silmarillion)—and I was always thinking I'd like to write something about them. But there was just so much about them already, and I thought, how can I possibly write anything which is different and which anybody will want to read, and is there really any point? But gradually, over time, I found something I could write. And I know you mentioned that you'd like an idea about some of my poems that I might like to point people to. Can I do one of those now?

Anérea: Yes. Please do.

Helen: So I've mentioned the Thranduil sonnet—that's called Autumn Crown. That's one. And then another, which is also one that I recommended to someone to try, because they'd said that they were keen on friendship between Elves and Dwarves. And I think this is quite a nice story, because it ties in with so many aspects of my Tolkien life.

I was in one of those Alliance of Arda Zoom meetings I've mentioned, and I can't remember if it was a Tolkien Reading Day-type event, or if it was one where we were talking about the "Durin's Folk" section of the Appendices. But anyway, I read the "Song of Durin"—you know, Gimli's song—and somebody commented that they wondered what Legolas thought of it when he first heard it. And that just clicked a switch in my brain, and I thought, I've got to write that. And I'm so pleased I managed to do it. I ended up writing what I called Homage to the Song of Durin, which is Legolas being inspired by Gimli's song. It's relating the journey through Moria, from just before to just after, while Legolas is getting to know Gimli better and starting to appreciate his culture and seeing the ancestral home. And it's got the same number of lines as the "Song of Durin", and it quotes a few lines or paraphrases them slightly, all with very respectful intentions. And Legolas is trying to be so polite, and using the Khuzdul names and so on! I think it's the longest poem I've written, it's just under 300 words, and I'm quite proud of that one. It's in Beyond the Silmarillion on SWG. I don't know whether you've seen that one, but I’m quite fond of it.

Anérea: I am so glad you mentioned it because it sounds absolutely delightful and I want to go and read it now!

Helen: Well, if you want to. But sorry, that really sounds like showing off, I do apologize! But it's one of those things where I thought, I really want to do this, and I got to the end of it, and I was so pleased.

Anérea: Oh, you see, that's the magic thing. I think society has sort of said, oh, you need to be modest, you can't think well of yourself—effectively such nonsense like that. And actually, if we weren't delighted and proud of our own work, we wouldn't make anything. So that is part of the magic of creativity. And it's an absolute delight to be proud and pleased with things that we create.

And I love that, on the SWG server, we have the shameless self promotion channel. It really is because there shouldn't be any shame or embarrassment about sharing our work and about feeling good about what we create. So I'm absolutely delighted that you shared that with us, and I'm looking forward to reading it.

I wanted to ask, are there any other final words you'd like to share with us?

Helen: I'll just mention one more poem if I may, and there's probably something else I should do. But to get my plug in for my favourite Appendices character, Fíriel of Gondor (who married Arvedui), who I'm so very fond of. I think I mentioned I quite like writing poems that have fourteen lines, not necessarily sonnets, but it just seems to be quite a nice length. And I wrote one from her point of view based on the information we have in the Appendices and Unfinished Tales, which isn't very much, but I managed to get it all in there, and that's called The Last Queen of the North. So that's probably my final recommendation of my own works!

But I think I just want to reiterate really, all the inspiration I've had, from SWG and from the challenges; and I can't quite believe the fact that, two years ago, I hadn't done any of this. And now I've dared to volunteer to write poetry for Mereth Aderthad! I'm still quite astonished that I've got to this point, and my poem's going to be in the zine, and I'm going to read it. And it's just all wonderful and exciting, that I seem to have found just a little niche. And I'm so grateful to the friends I've made, people like my artist friend (that's Kai, who's doing the Gil-galad art for MA), whose work has inspired me, and other people who've been so encouraging—including you. You've always left me such lovely comments and have really encouraged me to feel it's worth pursuing this. So thank you.

Anérea: Absolutely! And I completely agree with you about the community. This is a very special little community and very encouraging and supportive, and there is a kind of magic about reading fanfic because there's so many different viewpoints and ways of looking at things from different people … and just so much cake!

Helen: Absolutely. Everyone's got a slightly different take on things, haven't they?

Anérea: Absolutely. I mean, I remember your poem about Fíriel as well, and everything you brought up in there. I was thinking how those things never even occurred to me, and it never would have occurred to me, if you hadn't brought it up. So that's what I absolutely love, all these different takes. We've got all these same characters and the same events that happened, and yet there are as many viewpoints of them as there are people who are reading. There's so many different stories within the same story, there's so many different characters within the same character. For instance, like you, I was also very fond of Thingol. And I also didn't see that he did anything more wrong than many of the other characters. So I was also very surprised when I came into the fandom, and people pointed out how wrong he was or how terrible he was, etc. And I really appreciate that because you get all this nuance with these characters.

Helen: Actually, there's something else I wanted to say about Thingol. And that was, I mentioned how much I like The Children of Húrin (CoH), and I think he comes out of that rather well. And because I like that part of Tolkien's work so much, Thingol, well, he's a stern, proud king, but in that at least, I think he's fair, he's just. He listens, and he takes advice. And he's obviously learnt, because, having been so anti-Men, he's willing to foster Túrin and do his best for him, although Túrin might think differently (I love poor Túrin as well, disastrous though he is). I think there's just so much good about Thingol there. And I always try and think about him in CoH, before I start judging him for anything else he did.

Anérea: Yeah. That's so right that he actually does learn from these things, which people sometimes overlook. And I see him as just, he's an Elf, but I see him as so human in this fallibility. We all make mistakes, we all make these decisions in the moment without that twenty-twenty hindsight, and also colored by our emotions and our experiences and everything.

Helen: Yeah, absolutely.

Anérea: Just very human.

Helen: Yeah. And as my poem shows, he's affected by the Silmaril, in the way that many others are. He's not totally free. There are things working on him and eating away at him that he didn't necessarily choose. He might have brought them on himself, but it's all far worse than he would have imagined, I think.

Anérea: Absolutely. And the points that you raise in your sonnet are very interesting. All those sort of things to consider, which, once again, I hadn't actually considered all of them as factors which would have influenced him. So that's one of the things I really love about what you've written for the Mereth Aderthad.

Helen: And I do owe a lot of that to Stella, actually, the presenter, for giving me ideas. She's really helped me with that.

Anérea: Yeah, I think that's one of the wonderful things about the community is having that feedback and bouncing ideas around.

Helen: Absolutely.

Anérea: Well, I am really looking forward to hearing you read your poem at the Mereth Aderthad, and I'm sure everybody else is. This has been such a delightful interview and it's been wonderful chatting with you and getting all the background.

Helen: Thank you for giving me the opportunity and wanting to interview me. And that's another thing—I don't think anybody's ever wanted to interview me before! It's so nice of you.